Description:
A battery that can power the planet. A steel making process that can cleans the air by reducing CO2. In this second film in our Conversation with Tomorrow series visionary energy expert Professor Donald R. Sadoway looks at the future of energy and how his revolutionary ideas can create renewable, more sustainable energy for everyone, everywhere.
I’ve posted on this before, apparently the concept is now the foundation of a growing company, attracting serious investment.
More details on the implementation below:
The Liquid Metal Battery project is developing a low-cost, long-lifespan battery for grid-scale stationary storage. The battery comprises three liquid layers: on the bottom a high-density liquid metal acting as the positive electrode, on the top a low-density liquid metal acting as the negative electrode, and in between the two metal layers a molten salt of intermediate density acting as the electrolyte. Owing to the rank order of their densities and the immiscibility of contiguous phases, the three liquid layers self assemble without the need for membranes or separators. This suggests that the design will be scalable at low cost. Furthermore, common failure mechanisms found in solid electrodes are inoperative in liquid electrodes which translates into a long service lifetime.
Sadoway is a smart guy. He’s also an appealing and attractive speaker (for a scientist). His liquid metal battery concept could be a real game changer, and I wish him and AMBRI the best.
All that said, my crap detectors vibrated some as I viewed the two video clips and did some more surfing about AMBRI. While AMBRI is definitely not a Solar Roadway or Clean Wind Energy Tower, the marketing geniuses that want you to send them money have been busy (and isn’t AMBRI already a copyrighted name for a drug with one of those marketing genius warnings about “seeking medical help for any erection lasting longer than 4 hours”?).
The marketing geniuses really outdid themselves with “Batteries From Dirt”. WOW! I can go out in my yard and dig and I’ll find the materials I need to become energy self-sufficient? Even though I will likely find only fossilized dog poop and buried construction debris? I will say WOW again! Sign me and Andrew Fez up for $50K worth of stock. They’ve already raised $35 MILLION and Bill Gates has signed on, so the ‘batteries from dirt” thing must be working.
Everything in the universe can be classified as either energy or matter, so I guess it’s barely permissible to call things that have mass and take up space in the planet’s crust “dirt”. I DO object to the facile usage of the word “dirt” to describe things that are NOT facile in the way chemists use the word—-Sadoway should know better, and using the word that way is evocative of used-car-salesman tactics.
The small scale experimental cells and their demonstration of the concept are impressive, but 2014 is almost over and AMBRI has not yet produced a working version of the 2 KW CORE that can be installed in the basement of a house. They DO have an empty mockup painted in nice colors with a nice logo, though, and it’s quite a bit bigger than “refrigerator size”—-its size and probable weight are such that it would best be put in place before the house is built rather than retrofitted. When are we going to see results? Even Solar Roadway has a pad you can park a car on (and take pictures of).
I wonder too about having a huge box of hundreds of pounds of very hot “dirt” in my basement—-the Core will operate at temperatures well above the combustion point of the materials in a house, and if anything ever goes wrong, there will be no stopping it. We are all familiar with the damage done when a small lithium-ion battery blows, and the CORE will be a potentially huge (and toxic) bomb. NIMBY (not in my basement yet)—-I’d sooner take a chance on having a nuke from a decommissioned sub down there—hardly any bigger and with a proven safety record (and if it does “overheat” you can spray water on it, unlike lithium
For those who are not familiar with how nasty lithium can be as a substance, here’s a link:
http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/elements/li.htm
An earlier(?) design used mercury as the liquid metal:
http://ma.ecsdl.org/content/MA2012-02/15/1868.full.pdf
It could operate at 300 degrees Celsius. This design appears to operate at 450 degrees Celsius. Recent article from Nature:
http://www.nature.com/news/liquid-metal-batteries-get-boost-from-molten-lead-1.15967
The Sadoway marketing uses the qualifying words “suggests that the design will be scalable at low cost”. The Nature article says the current design is still five times more expensive than the target goal for the economics to work, but it’s significantly closer than it had been.
The Alger video is really a remarkable sales pitch for the techno-optimist vision of the future. I think it’s the path to Hell, but we’re more likely to get a form of Sadoway’s vision than a form of us all becoming Amish, anyway, so we’ll see.
Antimony mining:
http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2014/05/21/4009336.htm
Yes, Sadoway has been bouncing around a number of materials that are toxic, corrosive, and/or dangerous—mercury, sodium, lead, lithium, antimony, NaCl salts—-and all molten to boot. I want to see several working CORE sized units operate for a year or more before I get aboard. I too noted that the projected $500 was 5 times the $100 target “economics” cost and wondered how they were going to get that down—-the materials are not likely to get much cheaper and it doesn’t appear that they will be able to skimp on “containment”. Alger and Sadoway and his ever growing “team” have guaranteed their salaries for quite a few years into the future with the LMB project, but they need to “show us the beef” soon.
The link to antimony mining tells an all-too-familiar story. One of the books that I read back in the 70’s that raised my awareness was Rachel Scott’s Muscle and Blood (subtitled: “The massive, hidden agony of industrial slaughter in America”). It speaks to a number of “dusty” industries like antimony mining. A great read.
“…Even Solar Roadway has a pad you can park a car on (and take pictures of)…”
And the first public space Solar Roadways are on schedule to be installed next spring. I guess you will be able to take pictures of that development too.
I don’t have a dog in this fight but I do recall reading that the ‘Horseless Carriages’ were also an insane unworkable proposal until a certain madman name of Herr Benz came up with a decent little two stroke engine.
Interestingly it was his wife, Bertha Benz, who ‘stole’ his prototype one day and drove it from Mannheim to Pforzheim and back – a 100 mile round trip – thereby creating enough publicity and thus funding to establish what was to become Mercedes-Benz.
I can’t see busy major highways being constructed from Solar Roadways anytime in the next decade, but the idea per se is an absolute no-brainer for areas like pedestrian shopping streets and quiet sprawling suburbs in sunny countries.
According to SR, “IF ALL GOES WELL, we SHOULD be able to start installing at these locations next spring”. The installation will take place in their hometown of Sandpoint, Idaho, a nice little town of 7,000 that is located at 48N—–very close to the freakin’ CANADIAN BORDER! How convenient for the SR folks—-right close to home so they won’t have to go to AZ or some place further south where SR might make better sense. Good for the town too!—-Sandpoint is so far off the beaten path that anyone who wants to “take pictures” will have to stay there overnight and spend money. Maybe that’s the point? If they make the SR demo project so hard to get to, everyone will just rely on the PR crap SR sends out and send them more money (they raised $2.2 mil in their last drive).
You most certainly DO have a dog in this fight, as do we all. The problem we face is too serious to have time, attention, and money wasted on no brains ideas like SR and CWET. The most crative thing about SR is their publicity—-have you read it? The answers to the FAQ’s are priceless.
And you should think a bit longer before you come up with non sequiturs like Benz and the automobile. You can do better. Hint—-don’t mention the Wright brothers airplane or Fulton’s steamboat either—-all three were concepts that humans had thought about for centuries—-ever since the invention of carts with wheels, boats, and bird-watching, and it was all a result of man getting tired of walking. They were things that were going to happen. SR is nothing like them—it is a sorry attempt to twist technology into something that will NOT happen by someone who seeks to profit from the support of the gullible.
I notice that the Dutch have just laid the first solar roadway this week.
Or to be more accurate, the first solar cycleway.
Ooops!
And by the way – re my analogy – solar power HAS been thought about for at least a century. First panel was made in 1888.
“I notice that the Dutch have just laid the first solar roadway this week.
Or to be more accurate, the first solar cycleway”.
I commented on this on another thread. They are going to spend $3+ million dollars to build it, that’s about 50 (FIFTY) times what asphalt would cost, and it will generate enough electricity to power 3 (THREE) houses. Do the math.
How do you say “There’s a sucker born every minute” in Dutch?
Leslie – minnesota is installing solar along road right of ways. Germany is ahead on this.
http://cleantechnica.com/2014/10/24/minnesota-gets-ready-launch-solar-highways/
Arcus again confuses the discussion by injecting an irrelevancy.
We were talking about Solar Roadways, NOT Minnesota’s plan to install solar on highway rights of way, and those are two very different things.
Or does Arcus not understand the difference? Probably not. As is his usual modus operandi, he “researches” until words like “solar highways” pop out, and then proceeds to again demonstrate his willful ignorance by pretending the link has any meaning. Patience, all.
You are confused. The topic is batteries. You brought up Solar Roadways. Since you are off topic, I played along. Now that someone followed you off topic, you are against it. I realize that anyone can comment here, but the comment was for leslie, not you. Would you prefer that we all just stay on topic and that I remind you not to go off topic? Would that help? Then we can all stay on topic together.
Actually no, it’s not me that’s confused but YOU, as anyone who reads the 13 responses on this thread can easily determine. Fortunately, you have not yet trashed it as badly as you have the “keep the lights” thread, although you’re off to a good start.
A quick look back reveals that the topic is indeed BATTERIES,and more specifically the LMB (Liquid Metal Battery) that Sandoway and his group are working on. Jimbills and I made the first four comments, and they were all germane to the LMB concept and Sadoway’s group as Peter introduced the topic.
Leslie seized on my very brief aside about Solar Roadway in his fifth comment in the string, and made some ill-considered remarks. I used the sixth comment to give him some information that he might find useful in avoiding logic fails in the future.
YOU then arrived on the scene with the seventh comment in the string, giving an irrelevant link to something called Solar Highways, which is TOTALLY UNRELATED to Solar Roadway in all ways except that they both utilize PV’s.
You “played along”? I call BS on that—-you brought a baseball bat to a football game because you don’t know any better. And that’s about how far off topic YOU were in your confusion, as I pointed out in the eighth comment in the string.
What I AM against is your willful ignorance and your misinterpretation and misuse of what you call “research” (and I refer to as “looking up things you don’t understand that have titles you think prove something”)
You want to talk only to leslie? Call him on the phone. When you post comments on Crock, they are for the entire community to see and react to, and when you spout BS, you will hear from me. (I’m salty and grumpy, remember?)
To finish my analysis of this thread, Cy chipped in with some humor (and I dislike “Tesla Freaks”), and John Christian chipped in with his two cents. Fine by me. YOU then reappeared with some pandering to JCL and more OT babbling about variability and the grid. I hope you don’t continue to trash this thread as you have so many others of late—-the LMB concept deserves full discussion, and it is you and leslie who have gone OT, not me. I would like to get back to it. Perhaps you could take time out from your “research” on grid, variability, and Germany and educate yourself on the LMB topic so that you could contribute?
I too would prefer that we stay on topic and I remind YOU that your last comment is not about LMB, the topic of this thread. I would also remind you that you really ought to sit back and count your toes every once in a while—you have shot so many of them off lately that you are walking on your kneecaps. You will soon need a ladder to be able to reach up into the refrigerator for the fuel for your “bar stool discussions”.
Say goodnight, Christopher.
Ha – the only dirt i invest in is the stuff that goes into my patio container garden, out back.
I thought it was decided that the French company, SAFT, was the battery manufacture that had a good foot in the door on future grid storage. Something makes me think that the fund called ‘First Trust NASDAQ Clean Edge (NASDAQ:GRID)’ had a good stake in the company, but I’ve been working on creative projects and haven’t had time to dive in and figure it all out yet.
I did see something on facebook from Green Car Reports about Titanium Dioxide anodes helping improve Lithium tech:
Researchers at Nanyang Technological University (NTU) in Singapore (via Engadget) say they’ve developed a lithium-ion battery that can be recharged to 70 percent capacity in two minutes, and last up to 20 years.
That would allow an electric car to fully recharge in around five minutes–about the same time it takes to refuel a gasoline car–and ease concerns over short battery lifespans and the need to replace battery packs.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1095063_can-new-titanium-dioxide-battery-last-20-years-recharge-in-5-minutes
Actually, Andrew, you ARE investing in a lot of dirt, since that’s what AMBRI’s marketing geniuses are calling a rather broad range of matter. You could say that peanut butter is dirt also and make an argument for that. I hope you find rime to take a look soon at what’s going on in the stock market and economies around the globe—-things are looking both “bubbly” and shaky—-might be time to go heavy on cash, and don’t expect to play the “buy low-sell high” game when things recover—-they may not recover for a very long time this time. (Actually, things haven’t really recovered much from the last time except for the 1%).
Sadoway has nothing on the researchers at Nanyang Technological University (NTU) in Singapore. He just got their earlier. Now they too can climb on the gravy train of government grants, crowd sourcing, and venture capital (and that’s when they can get some real PR—-when the “pump and dumpers” come on the scene). We shall see how this latest “breakthrough” fares—-there have been so many—-I’m still trying to come to the grips with the “breakthrough” of fracking shale gas and hoping that the “breakthrough” in fusion we recently talked about on Crock doesn’t take any more than the 10 years they say they need to make it work.
I watched Sadoway’s TED talk about this battery a couple years ago and while I thought it had promise, I got a very strong whiff of salesmanship from him.
I wish him success but I think he’s been glossing over the difficulties which you & others have pointed out.
There are many paths to energy storage, some more promising than others.
The one I’m currently betting will be the 1st of the new approaches to break through is Isentropic UK.
Their solution may not be based on “dirt” but it is all about gravel & gas and I don’t think we’ll run out of either anytime soon.
In 2006, Hollywood released a movie called “The Prestige.” Perhaps some of you saw it?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0482571/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
In that movie, Nicholas Tesla invented a machine that apparently could clone humans on the fly and transmit their living breathing bodies through the air on radio waves before finally assembling them, where they apparently died shortly thereafter. Sort of like the Transporter machine on Star Trek, except instead of transmitting an already existing human, Tesla’s machine makes a perfect copy first. Think of it as a combined scanner, cell phone, 3D printer and human-life generator all in one.
And here I thought that my combined HP Deskjet printer & scanner was good. And that’s not to mention the fact that Tesla did all this before his death in 1943.
Of course, the movie was nonsense, albeit well-acted entertaining nonsense. But it apparently has inspired a cult of devout Tesla freaks, who maintain that Tesla coils produce energy (rather than just stepping up the voltage). The magical source of this energy has remained a mystery because “they” don’t want us to have it. But according to recent Youtube videos, it seems that the source of power is “zero point energy.” Go to Youtube and search for that term – you’ll find plenty of people who have built working models which they demonstrate but for some mysterious reason these only work when plugged into a wall outlet or connected to batteries.
There are some other great sources of power out there which “they” don’t want us to have, like black holes and dark matter. The Koch brothers are worried that if everybody puts a black hole in their basement, we’ll no longer need oil and natural gas.
Actually, they’re right about that. If you manage to put a black hole in your basement, you won’t need anything else, not even food or water. All your problems will be instantly solved, permanently.
Norwegian metal production uses most of its power from hydro electricity which makes it probably the cleanest metal produced, and it seems the demand for this is rising these days:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/15/uk-climatechange-summit-nhydro-idUSKCN0I41SP20141015
Norsk Hydro, also has set its goal to become carbon neutral by 2020.
The trick with any industry is to build it close to the renewable energy source, even mining can do this even though today its an incredibly polluting industry.
I am fairly confident that the battery technology for storing energy locally in each house will come faster than we imagine, and really solve the intermittency problems of even simple things like solar.
I am following a guy in Norway (southeast) who has recently covered his roof with solar cells, although today he say that the cost is very high due to the incredible cheap energy we have here from Hydro Power. Its still a very interesting project as he still claims that the whole setup is paid down by 10-15 years, even with our current prices. So part of me say its a nobrainer in spite of our cheap electricity here, if we could only get good decent storage. Well since I now also have an electrical car, I know part of that storage is already here, but I cant use it when I need it besides for when I am driving the car. So the solutions feel rather close at hand if someone bothers to implement them in a safe way so that everyone can use it.
JCL – it’s coming. Panasonic is developing a V2G/ solar electronics/ storage package.
http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/panasonic-partners-with-powertree-services-to-build-68-ev-charging-stations
There’s some value to storage—but it’s not what proponents typically claim.
Energy storage has become this year’s cause célèbre.
The main selling point for storage, forged into a meme by story after story in the press, is that storage is needed to compensate for the variable output of wind and solar. “Today, the power grid isn’t able to easily handle the rapid fluctuations in the production of wind and solar power,” is just a random sample quote.
But this claim is not true now, and will not be true for quite some time. The electricity grid is by far the most cost-effective and reliable way to deal with the variability of wind and solar, just like it deals with the variability of demand.
Chris, for once you and I are in complete agreement. Adding storage to the grid adds zero energy, while adding tons to cost. There has to be a really strong time-dependent wholesale market, combined with a VERY cheap storage cost, to make it worthwhile. And Sadoway’s battery isn’t even close to being cheap enough.
Sadoway’s paper in Nature indicates, based on the current prices of lead, antimony, and lithium, a cost of $375/kWh. The paper also cites performance degradation of 15% after the equivalent of 10 years of daily cycling (3650 cycles).
But let’s assume 20 years of cycling instead, for 7300 cycles. At $375/kWh capex and 7300 cycles, that’s 5 cents per kWh-cycle. The paper also indicates 73% roundtrip efficiency, so mark that up to 7 cents — and we’re doubling the cost of electricity if we draw it from this battery. Further, since this battery operates at 450 C, we would have to generate a lot of heat to use it. It’s completely unclear how that heat could be generated, especially in a fossil-free world, or what the cost of that heat would be.
“Further, since this battery operates at 450 C, we would have to generate a lot of heat to use it. It’s completely unclear how that heat could be generated”,
If you visit the AMBRI site and wade through the hype, you will discover this bit of clearly stated info.
“The system operates at elevated temperature maintained by self-heating during charging and discharging”
That would seem to indicate that NO outside source of energy is needed to heat up the lithium bomb.
There is a dichotomy between utility grid storage and distributed behind the meter storage. Residential storage is starting to take off aided by high rates in Australia. One utility is even encouraging it in remote locations. In Germany, it can gain popularity not only because of high rates, but because there is less payback feeding excess to the grid.
DS battery only needs significant heat once, when it starts up. Some molten salt batteries have trouble if they cool. I don’t know if that’s a problem with DS battery.