Beyond Putin: Trump Administration’s Secret Nuclear Sellout

April 19, 2019

Nuclear weapons capacity for the Saudis. What could go wrong?

House Oversight Committee:

Washington, D.C. (Feb. 19, 2019)—Today, Rep. Elijah E. Cummings, the Chairman of the Committee on Oversight and Reform, issued an interim staff report
 after multiple whistleblowers came forward to warn about efforts inside the White House to rush the transfer of highly sensitive U.S. nuclear technology to Saudi Arabia in potential violation of the Atomic Energy Act and without review by Congress as required by law—efforts that may be ongoing to this day.  The report states:
“The whistleblowers who came forward have expressed significant concerns about the potential procedural and legal violations connected with rushing through a plan to transfer nuclear technology to Saudi Arabia.  They have warned of conflicts of interest among top White House advisers that could implicate federal criminal statutes.  They have also warned about a working environment inside the White House marked by chaos, dysfunction, and backbiting.  And they have warned about political appointees ignoring directives from top ethics advisors at the White House who repeatedly and unsuccessfully ordered senior Trump Administration officials to halt their efforts.”
The report warns that that White House efforts to transfer sensitive U.S. nuclear technology to Saudi Arabia may be accelerating after meetings last week at the White House and ahead of a planned visit to Saudi Arabia by the President’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner:
“The Committee’s investigation is particularly critical because the Administration’s efforts to transfer sensitive U.S. nuclear technology to Saudi Arabia appear to be ongoing.  On February 12, 2019, the President met with nuclear power developers at the White House about sharing nuclear technology with countries in the Middle East, including Saudi Arabia.  In addition, next week Mr. Kushner will be embarking on a tour of Middle Eastern capitals—including Riyadh—to discuss the economic portion of the Administration’s Middle East peace plan.”
The report highlights concerning events involving Saudi Arabia, including the brutal murder of Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi, which was met with equivocation by President Trump and other top Administration officials, and the refusal by the White House to submit a report on Mr. Khashoggi’s killing that was requested on a bipartisan basis by the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations.
The report indicates that there is now serious, bipartisan concern with the Trump Administration’s efforts to transfer sensitive U.S. nuclear technology to Saudi Arabia.  For example, on October 31, 2018, Republican Senators Marco Rubio, Todd Young, Cory Gardner, Rand Paul, and Dean Heller sent a letter
 to President Trump urging him to “suspend talks related to a potential civil nuclear cooperation agreement between the United States and Saudi Arabia” due to “serious concerns about the transparency, accountability, and judgment of current decisionmakers in Saudi Arabia.”
The report describes new documents and communications
 between White House officials, including former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn, former Deputy National Security Advisor K.T. McFarland, and former NSC Senior Director for Middle East and North African Affairs Derek Harvey, as well as with Thomas Barrack, President Trump’s personal friend of several decades and the Chairman of his Inaugural Committee, and Rick Gates, President Trump’s former Deputy Campaign Manager and Deputy Chairman of the Inaugural Committee who has now pleaded guilty to financial fraud and lying to investigators.

Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists:

US government officials appear to be advancing a potential sale of nuclear power plants to Saudi Arabia. Late last month, Reuters reported that Energy Secretary Rick Perry approved six secret authorizations for companies to do preliminary work on a Saudi nuclear deal without congressional oversight. The Reuters article followed an interim staff report that US Rep. Elijah Cummings, chairman of the House Oversight Committee, released in February; the report cited whistleblowers who had warned that the White House was trying to rush the transfer of nuclear technology to the Kingdom.
Many experts have expressed concern about the terms of a US-Saudi nuclear cooperation agreement now apparently under negotiation. Some despair at the very idea of transferring such sensitive technology to a regime known to have been involved in the gruesome murder of a prominent US-based journalist and to have led a bloody war in Yemen.
Saudi Arabia has attempted to justify its nuclear power program as a way to shift its electrical system away from fossil fuels, in part because of climate change concerns and in part because it is economically useful for the Kingdom to sell its oil and gas on the international market, rather than use them to generate electricity.
But for sun-baked Saudi Arabia, the economical and obvious switch is to solar energy, which also doesn’t result in carbon emissions and can be used to reduce domestic consumption of oil and gas. The limited efforts in installing solar power capacity on the part of the Saudi government suggest that climate action and economics may not be the driving motivations for its extensive nuclear energy plan. Indeed, members of the Saudi regime have, on other occasions, made it clear that their interests in nuclear energy derive from the idea that it would help them acquire the capability to make nuclear weapons and match Iran, whose regional status is seen to have risen as a result of its uranium enrichment program, even though it is now apparently limited by the Iran nuclear deal.
The contrast between Saudi Arabia’s solar potential and its focus on nuclear power raises a question: Why is the Trump administration so eager to provide nuclear technology to such a questionable partner? We offer some tentative answers to this question and argue that it would be best for the United States to stop trying to sell nuclear reactors to Saudi Arabia, and to use its considerable diplomatic capacity to encourage other countries to do the same.
Outside inducement, inside interest. Despite President Trump’s outspoken interest in maintaining a close relationship with the Saudi leadership, the White House is not seeking a Saudi nuclear agreement entirely on its own volition. It is also responding to a major lobbying effort. In February, representatives from several nuclear energy firms, including NuScale, TerraPower, Westinghouse, and General Electric, met with President Trump reportedly with the aim of having the president “highlight the role US nuclear developers can play in providing power to other countries.”

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43 Responses to “Beyond Putin: Trump Administration’s Secret Nuclear Sellout”

  1. doldrom Says:

    To date, Trump has been a gofor for Israeli policies. Blowing up the JCPOA (freeing Iran to pursue a nuclear agenda) and confrontation with Persia seems a definite goal (of Israel), which will have the same sort of unintended results as the last 20 rounds of regime change and foreign intervention.
    Pompeo believes in dispensationalism and the rapture (meeting Jesus in the clouds for a remnant of the faithful while the world engages in the “final” war at Argmageddon), and is trying to help the “divine” plan along. Arming the Saudis with nukes would probably be a big boost to such goals.
    American policy is not in the hands of rational actors. If you have ever played the game of Risk, you will know that you can only anticipate on other party’s enlightened self-interest. As soon as other parties become irrational or suicidally revengeful, strategy becomes impossible.

  2. Gingerbaker Says:

    As if Iran was not free to pursue a nuclear agenda in any case – they are not honest brokers, and the JCPOA gives them nuclear capacity in 4 years anyway.

    Why do you think Saudi Arabia wants nuclear capability? Because nobody with any sense believes Iran will not have nuclear capabilities sooner rather than later. And Iran is effing nuts – they are the most dangerous country on the planet. And they do NOT like Saudi Arabia.

    So, it is more than Israel that is getting worried. I despise Trump, but I am a hard-line right-wing supporter of Israel. So far, with a few exceptions, what Trump has been doing vis a vis Israel has been spot on, imho. I don’t think it is him, rather Kushner, btw, Trump I do not believe has the mental capacity to learn anything new.

    A bit over a year ago, I was completely ignorant of the history of the Middle East and the Israel-Palestine issue. I spent a lot of time educating myself on the issue, and I can tell you that never in my life have I seen anything resembling the amount of bullshit that is the Palestinian side of this issue, with the possible exception of the nuts pushing climate denial, but climate denial comes in a distant second.

    So, this is NOT about the Rapture, this is not about Israel hypnotizing Trump; this is about responding to the threat of Iran. Which is a belligerent Islamist theocracy bent on the destruction of Israel because the majority of the world’s Jews reside there and, yeah, establishing their own version of the Caliphate as they flex their muscles for power in the ME.

    • Gingerbaker Says:

      This is not to say that I agree with Trump et al on giving Saudi Arabia nuclear technology, because I don’t. I am just trying to put it into perspective.

    • jimbills Says:

      How does Trump giving nuclear tech to Saudi help Israel – specifically? Do you think Saudi Arabia would move a muscle if Iran attacked Israel? Or would they just be the same as they were during the Six-Day War?

      Do you know how deeply involved Kushner is with Saudi Arabia?:

      Forget that Kushner is Jewish. That’s not at play here. And a Muslim country in the Middle East (in addition to Iran) having nuclear tech doesn’t help Israel. If anything, it will further increase Iran’s drive to acquire them (and then other Middle East countries). And neither will Saudi Arabia having nuclear tech halt Iran’s ambitions.

      What happens if we give this tech to Saudi Arabia and then the Wahhabist majority overthrow the corrupt royalty there?:
      https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/analyses/wahhabism.html

      It is the Middle East. It’s not unheard of there.

      You say you don’t agree with Trump giving them the tech, okay, but then you go into Israel. How does this do anything at all for Israel other than making the Middle East even more dangerous?:
      https://www.dw.com/en/saudi-arabia-and-the-nuclear-temptation/a-47659982

      • jimbills Says:

        Interesting background on Saudi Arabia and nuclear:
        http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-o-s/saudi-arabia.aspx

        It’s a bit more complicated than assumed. Saudi Arabia has many reasons for wanting nuclear, and many countries are willing to help them. One of the reasons, though, is that they are currently using their own oil for electricity when they could be selling it on the global market.

        • dumboldguy Says:

          It is complicated beyond the issue of nuclear weapons. Saudi Arabia has used up much of its groundwater and needs to ramp up desalination (for which nuke is ideal), needs to ho;d back on its oil reserves for future sale at higher prices (although they’ve got a lot of oil left)—-pumping less of it will help prices rise. US-Israel-Iran-Saudi political games afoot. Many factors in the equation

    • jfon Says:

      The Palestinian side of the issue is that there are nearly two million people crammed into effectively the world’s largest prison, a tenth the size of Long Island, not allowed to go anywhere, for the crime of being born Arab on land wanted by Jews. Many of them have, or their grandparents had, land deeds for their homes in what is now Israel, issued by the British government of Palestine or by the Turkish authorities before that.
      The previous generation on the Israeli side was familiar with this concept, they called it a ‘ghetto’. When they resisted, they were labeled ‘ Jewish terrorists ‘.
      Iran isn’t particularly keen on this situation, any more than the black-ruled states of Africa, thirty years ago, liked the ‘Bantustans’ and ‘pass laws’ of apartheid South Africa, but they’re not so stupid as to start a war over it. Back then, Israel and South Africa were co-operating on building nuclear weapons, and both states probably had enough fire power to decimate their neighbours even without them.
      South Africa got rid of apartheid, and its atom bombs, but it still has nuclear power. They make three times as much carbon-free power as its solar and wind do. The reactors had nothing to do with their weapons programme. For Saudi to make a bomb, they’d need either uranium enrichment plants, or a weapons-grade plutonium production reactor, which nobody is proposing to sell them.
      Incidentally, when I was in Israel, in the seventies, Iran was Israel’s best friend in the Middle East. Later on, the BFiME position was taken by by Turkey; now it’s Saudi Arabia, but it’s ‘ the love that dare not speak its name.’

      • Gingerbaker Says:

        Every statement you make is straight out of the antiZionist pro-Palestinian playbook. How much time have you spent verifying any of your statements?

        “The Palestinian side of the issue is that there are nearly two million people crammed into effectively the world’s largest prison, a tenth the size of Long Island, not allowed to go anywhere,”

        That is complete nonsense. Even Gazans can leave. It’s Jews who can not go into Arab territories. In their own country.

        for the crime of being born Arab on land wanted by Jews. “

        Nonsense. This whole mess has a cause, which was not the fault of any Jews. The cause has always been Muslim and pan-Arab anti semitism. This specific problem of the so-called “Palestinians” was caused by the five Arab nations who waged a war(s) of aggression, with the aim of genocide, against new-born Israel, and then didn’t do a damned thing to clean up their mess. Quite the opposite, in fact, they did their damndest to always make the problem worse.

        The “Palestinians” are political prisoners, not of Israel, but of Pan Arabism, whose only motivation for 100 years is the annihilation of any Jewish state in the Middle East, and the genocide of any Jews. They are the convenient dupes, the pawns of their own political leadership which has ALWAYS rejected every peace offer and promoted and rewarded an official policy of terrorism against Israeli citizens, and the cynical politics of Egypt and Jordan – among others – who have stranded their own citizens in Gaza and the West Bank in order to call them Palestinian refugees. The only ‘refugees’ in modern history that span not one….but five generations.

        Plenty of Arabs are full Israeli citizens with full rights. They stood with Israel against TWO wars of aggression by combined Arab armies in less than twenty years.

        “Many of them have, or their grandparents had, land deeds for their homes in what is now Israel, issued by the British government of Palestine or by the Turkish authorities before that.”

        Do you realize that that there were two commissions done by the British to investigate whether any Palestinian Arab landholders were not fairly compensated for their land? There were not, save for a few parcels whose owners never bothered to attend multiple hearings to retrieve compensation. Palestinian Arabs were happy to sell their lands – and almost all of them sold them to wealthy Arabs ( The Saudi Hashemite Royals who became the sovereigns of Jordan). Who then turned around and sold them at ridiculously high profits to Jews and Zionist organizations.

        Do you have any concerns for the opposite side of the coin? The British and French Mandates involved an area of land a hundred times bigger than Israel. All of it went to Muslims and Arabs. The states of Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan were made under the same exact auspices. Except these places either expelled their Jews with nothing and/or murdered them, and/or gave them no rights – ie, true apartheid. No doubt you have often spoken for the apartheid against and loss of property of Jews in the Middle East?

        I see you making parallels between apartheid South Africa and Israel. That is, in a word – disgusting. Do yourself a favor and visit Israel to see for yourself. Or go to YouTube and view the testimony of South African Muslims who have gone to Israel. Or go to Youtube and view the testimony of actual Arabs and Arab Israelis who live in Israel. They laugh at such vile notions.

        And thanks for explaining to this Jew what a “ghetto” means. Much appreciated.

        • jfon Says:

          Here’s some Arab Israelis on You Tube. They don’t sound too delighted about things. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WN4z8rWi5U

          • Gingerbaker Says:

            LOL. You didn’t actually watch the video, did you?

          • dumboldguy Says:

            ROTFLMAO! No, he/she didn’t “watch” the video, if “watching means LISTENING and THINKING about what was said and demonstrating some understanding. First, I don’t know how much editing was done to assemble this piece, but it was terrific—-the word “occupation” obviously has many and deep meanings to Arab Israelis, but this piece shows that it is NOT a problem in modern day Israel. Even if it was edited and took place mainly on a college campus, the interviewees as a group were impressive—pretty well informed for a bunch of kids, but I guess the nature of life in Israel demands that of most everyone.

            The occupation of Israel seems quite benign, at least when compared to the “occupation” of a couple of dozen countries during WW2, where the Jews and lots of others were either executed on the spot or shipped off to camps where “Arbeit macht frei” (ironic LOL). We might also compare it to the “occupation” of North America, where the “natives” were killed or pushed into “camps”. The “occupiers” also imported and enslaved millions of Black Africans. Even now, after hundreds of years, Native Americans and the descendants of slaves are STILL fighting for a level of freedom that the Arabs in Jerusalem seem to have achieved in just a few decades.

            (PS Have any of Arabs in Israel ever been lynched? I know trees are scarce, but they DO have light poles and balconies)

          • Gingerbaker Says:

            He is not the only fellow who goes around and interviews Arabs and Jews about life in Israel.

            Here is one that will blow your mind. The question to Arabs is “How much do you suffer under occupation”

            [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpDqZujEFAk]

            They all answer they suffer a lot. And then he asks them for examples. They are stumped. The only thing they can come up with is that they they have to wait for minutes to drive through two checkpoints if they want to make a very long trip somewhere.

            Just like Israelis have to do. In fact, IIRC, someone once did an accounting of the time spent by the typical Israeli going through security checks, which they have to do to go into most businesses because of terrorism (terrorism being the official government policy btw, of both the Palestine Authority and of Hamas.) Turns out Israeli citizens living in Israel spend more time going through security than Arabs do in the “occupied” territories.

            The so-called “suffering of the Palestinians” is an ethnic burlesque theater which must be maintained at all times if you are a Arab living in Israel. What’s hilarious is that none of them leave. Why? Because they know they have a WAY better quality of life in Israel than in any surrounding Arab state.

            Israel insures that Palestinians working in Israel receive much higher wages than anywhere else in the ME. They spend large sums of money to build and support schools and hospitals for Arabs – even in the “occupied” territories. Why? Because Israelis are far better people toward their neighbors than I would be.

            And because the terrorism-abetting Arab governments in the West Bank and in Gaza do not spend much on the well-being of their people. The Palestinian Authority, for example, actually spends more to financially reward the families of successful suicide bombers than it spends on all other social programs for its people added together.

            jfon accuses Gaza of being “the world’s largest open-air prison”. It’s a phrase you see constantly. (Don’t forget about the Palestinian Theater of Suffering – it’s always Showtime!) You also see Israel accused of “carpet bombing” Gaza, killing many thousands.

            Here are some Google images from that ‘carpet-bombed open-air prison’:

            https://www.google.com/search?q=gaza+shopping+resorts+vacations&rlz=1C1CHWL_enUS819US820&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUlr_l8uHhAhWnnuAKHeeBDBAQ_AUIECgD&biw=1291&bih=758

            Take a drive through Gaza. Look at the results of that carpet bombing of that open-air prison!

    • Brent Jensen-Schmidt Says:

      Get a grip GB, and more study of the history of the middle east is in order. The STATE of Israel is no longer the plucky David facing down Goliath but a regional thug with nuclear weapons. And Palestinians, people like everyone else, can go anywhere but home.

      • Gingerbaker Says:

        I’ve studied the crap out of it. Tis you who have no clue what you are talking about if you think Palestinian arabs can’t go “home”.

        Perhaps you missed the memo – Israel became a state in 1948. A state which included the West Bank, and Gaza. It was a state created by the official assent of every nation in the world.

        Guess who else got their own state? Palestinian Arabs, that’s who. In 1921, Britain, acting as administrator of the Mandate for Palestine, created Trans-Jordan out of the land that was actually promised to Jews, as the new Homeland for any Palestinian Arabs who would be displaced by the future state of what was to become Israel.

        Guess what that area was called for a while? It was called “Ciis-Jordan”. Jordan was the Jordan River. Do you understand the significance of the ‘cis-trans’ terminology. It means Israel stretched from the Jordan to the Mediterranean Sea.

        For decades, the leaders of Trans-Jordan made public speeches proclaiming “Jordan is Palestine, and Palestine is Jordan”. 99% of Jordanians are Palestinian arabs – the very same people you claim “can’t go home again”. Their family members were illegally occupying Israeli land on the West Bank from 1948 to `1967. They had Jordanian citizenship.

        After the 1967 war, Jordan most them stranded there, for the sole reason of manufacturing the refugee problem, At exactly the same time, they stopped saying “Jordan is Palestine” and actually started saying exactly the opposite.

        We can trace the first public use of the term “the Palestinians” or “the Palestinian people” right then – 1967. They never existed until this whole propaganda campaign started. We have quotes of Arab leaders themselves denying there ever was a Palestinian people. Quotes from Arab leaders laughing about how ridiculous was this propaganda campaign.

        So, please, regaled us with your scholarship about these “Palestinians” who have not been able to get “home”.

        • Brent Jensen-Schmidt Says:

          OK. Israel was proclaimed with Jewish AND Arab areas, did not include Jerusalem.
          It did NOT have the assent of every country in the world. Where did you get that one?
          SO Palestinians who would be displaced from their homes, for outside immigration, could move to Jordan. How bluddy nice and generous!
          The Palestinians living on the West Bank had been there for centuries/millennia so expound on the illegal bit. That is actually disgusting.
          The Palestinians are named after the area referred to as Palestine. A vaguely distinct group disliked by most, including other Arabs. Jordan is not 99% Palestinian, you are wrong.
          A portion of Israeli Jews, remembering their own history, express shame at the treatment of Palestinians. Even though the plantation owner insists the slaves are better off than being free.
          This middle east abortion is a matter of STATE DARWINIAN SURVIVAL. It has NO NO relation to justice or human rights,

          • Gingerbaker Says:

            Oh dear, you really have only a vague idea what you are talking about. Not to worry – tens of millions of people are in the same boat. You are reciting a common fantasy involving the UN Partition plan of 1947. It was a resolution (# 181) of the UN General Assembly – a proposal to interested parties.

            UN General Assembly Assembly resolutions have *zero* legal standing. They are exactly like resolutions of the US House of Representatives which go no further. There is a UNGA resolution on the books that recommends safe automobile driving practices.

            If 181 was agreed to by all parties, and a treaty resulted, then and only then would it have standing in International law. As it turns out, the Arabs flatly rejected it, choosing instead to mass five armies and attack Israel in a war of aggression. The UN, btw, has official policy on the validity of claims made regarding legal sovereignty over territory taken by wars of aggression. Do you know what it is? They REJECT them. Nevertheless – this is the sum total of the Palestinian claim to territory.

            The West Bank and Gaza are territories taken by wars of aggression. The West Bank was occupied illegally by Jordan from 1948 until they lost them in another war in 1967. In 1994 they signed a treaty with Israeli dissolving all their (specious) claims to the area, and officially giving that territory back to Israel.

            Why am I so sure those areas have always belonged to Israel? Because Britain was the administrator – the Mandate administrator – of Palestine, and they ( with France) drew the maps that defined Israel, Jordan, Iraq, lebanon, and Syria. The map of Israel they drew is NOT in dispute. And it stretched from the center of the Jordan River to the Mediterranean and all the way down to Eilat on the Red Sea. When Israel declared independence in 1948 – that instant – the Mandate for Palestine was over and Britain was no longer the administrator.

            And as I have pointed out in another comment here, International law has iron-clad rules about the borders of new nations. They are *always* the borders of the previous highest territory administrator. Recall that this principle is called “Uti possidetis juri”. It is inviolate. The borders of Israel at the moment of its declaration of independence are those of the border map of the British Mandator. Here is the map:

            dbhc04

            “It did NOT have the assent of every country in the world. Where did you get that one?”

            From the pages of history. The League of Nations (LON) was responsible for the apportionment of the lands of the defeated Ottoman Empire after the end of WWI. The Ottoman Empire signed a treaty ceding the territory and its future to the LON. Every country at the time signed legal documents with the LON to establish a new Jewish homeland in Palestine.

            The LON established a French and a British Mandate for Palestine to make new nations there. The Mandate system is how new nations were made. Israel, Trans-Jordan ( now known as simply Jordan), Lebanon,. Syria, and Iraq were all made under the auspices of the LON Mandate system. All voted on in the LON and by various countries in additional treaties confirming the same. For Israel, the other treaties, as it turned out, also voted for by every valid nation in the world were the San Remo Conference and the Treaty of Versaille.

            There are few nations in the world whose establishment are so universally approved and so formally legal as that of Israel.

            “The Palestinians living on the West Bank had been there for centuries/millennia so expound on the illegal bit. That is actually disgusting.
            The Palestinians are named after the area referred to as Palestine. ”

            Good grief. Arabs are Muslims. Islam was not even begun until the start of the 7th century. At which time Jews had been living in Palestine for more than 2500 years. There has NEVER been a time in 4000 years that Jews did not have a population in the Middle East or Jerusalem.

            The Palestinians are NOT named after the area referred to as Palestine. The word refers to a general geographical region, and dates back as a pejorative term the Romans gave to the land they exiled the Jews to after the Bar Kochba revolt in the 3rd century. For millennia, when people referred to Palestine, they meant the land of the Jews. Arabs are from – guess where? – Arabia ( and some claim, Syria). Why do you think the two most Holy places in the world for Muslims are Mecca and Medina – both in Saudi Arabia?

            By the beginning of the 20th century (actually much earlier than that), Palestine was an area where there were people from all three Abrahamic religions lived. They were known as Palestinian Jews, Palestinian Arabs, Palestinian Christians. Before 1948 when Israel came into being, the word “Palestine” and “Palestinian” was part of the vernacular of Jewish culture. Most institutions in modern Israel used the name. The Times of Israel newspaper, for example, for many many years was “the Palestine Times. Shekels (Jewish money) were minted with “Palestine” across the top in Hebrew letters.

            As I already said, the term “the Palestinians” or “the Palestinian people’ as referring only to Palestinian Arabs was never used until Yasir Arafat started the custom as a propaganda device in 1967, after the West Bank was liberated back to Israeli control.

        • Brent Jensen-Schmidt Says:

          And this is off topic and pointless. If you can solve the issue you will receive the Nobel Peace Prize, every other international award with a sainthood thrown in.
          IMO, Saudi’s and nuclear power is problematical.

        • Brent Jensen-Schmidt Says:

          There is an area known as Palestine that has been lived in since the year dot. Multiple empires have come and gone. European empires had fun fighting, exploiting and drawing lines on maps. One day a Brit offered this land to a dispersed religious non nation. Later, the Brits promised not give the land to them. Well woopti effing do! The non unanimous UN resolution ( the UK abstained for eg.) partitioned the area into Jewish and Arab Administrated Areas. Woopti! The views of the PEOPLE actually living there were unimportant. These PEOPLE were occupied militarily and I do NOT know of any UN laws that allow the military annexation of land. There are the odd dozen UN resolutions requiring Israel to return the occupied lands of course. PEOPLE still living in the West Bank, are not citizens and have no say in their democratic ‘administration’. Your proposition that some people are unworthy of living in their homeland and can always go somewhere else is pretty nasty.

          Much very ancient history has been mention here and there, so here is one of the (SO) moral stories that helped kill religion for me.

          The Israelite’s finally reached the promised land of milk and honey.
          They gazed upon it and saw that it was……..occupied…….buggar!
          The leader proclaimed we shall kill, enslave and drive these people away from the land we want.
          Is that moral, asked someone.
          Sure, GOD said we could, trust me!
          And the world turns.

          • Gingerbaker Says:

            Goof effing grief. 😦

            Evidently facts and history go in your eyeholes, get processed by faulty circuitry in your brain, and then come out your mouthhole as your last comment.

            You are brain-washed. Snap out of it.

      • dumboldguy Says:

        Yeah, get a grip, GB—-we need to focus on the STATE of Israel and its history of only 70+ years, and not the history of the “middle east” and the Jewish people in Israel that goes back 3000+ years that you want to talk about. The Jewish “home” was invaded and occupied by Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Egyptians, Seleucids. Maccabees. and Romans over its first thousand years, culminating in the Diaspora about 2000 years ago—-the scattering of the Jews all over the “civilized” world. For those not familiar with the history, here’s a readable short version:
        https://www.ancient.eu/israel/

        And the STATE of Israel and those few Jews who survived the Holocaust and have returned to it as a last refuge ARE a “plucky David facing down the Goliath” of global antisemitism. What’s wrong with that?

        It’s also a bit silly to talk of Israel being nothing but “but a regional thug with nuclear weapons”. The “thugs” are the surrounding Arabs who have forced the Israelis to fight for their lives so many times in the last 72 years, and if the Israelis didn’t have the nukes, they would have tried even more times. (And by that thinking. is the US the biggest “thug” of all? We have LOTS of nukes, and like the Israelis, have used them to ensure peace—-how is that “thuggy”?.)

        All in all, considering what has been done to the Jews down through history, and how generally crazy and vicious others have been towards them, it would actually be fitting if the nuclear war that ends the world broke out in the Middle East—-though if it does, it will be Iran or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan that starts it. Salaam alaikum and Shalom!

        • dumboldguy Says:

          Came across a good presentation of the history of the conflict. Worth watching

          • Gingerbaker Says:

            Actually, more than half of the Jews in Israel are not those involved in the Holocaust – they are of African, Asian, and Middle East heritage.

            The latest tactic of the BDS movement is to accuse Jews of being white supremacists. (yeah, it’s true!) Why? because they are not dark skinned!

            Except, the majority of Israeli Jews ARE not white. :>D

            “Yeah, get a grip, GB—-we need to focus on the STATE of Israel and its history of only 70+ years, and not the history of the “middle east” and the Jewish people in Israel that goes back 3000+ years that you want to talk about. ”

            Jeezum Crow DOG – I am not going back more than 100 years – back to 1917, not earlier. The only time I made an exception was to mention that the Palestinian cause says **** like there were no Jews in the Middle East – ever!

            I’m not joking! They say **** like this, because people are so effing lazy intellectually, they actually believe them. It’s amazing to me that people who can appreciate the subtleties, of say, global warming science believe the rancid dingo kidneys of the BDS Boyz.

            Hence, we are to believe that Israel is poisoning Palestinian children with contaminated water.

          • dumboldguy Says:

            (this ended up in the wrong place—belongs here)

            Maybe I wasn’t clear—IMO, EVERY last bit of the last 3000 years, including the 2000 years of “exile” during the Diaspora are important, not just the 100 or so years that you were concentrating on. The Jews have been there longer than anyone.

  3. Jean Swan Says:

    Very sad that Israel is slowly killing Palestinian children by making them drink contaminated water.I trust Norman Finkelstein’s information..Saudi Arabia w nukes scary

    • Gingerbaker Says:

      Norman Finkelstein is not a reliable source. This is the guy who talks about “the Holocaust industry”:

      https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2005/10/24/finkelstein-and-the-ycias-misusing-yale-abusing-students/

      The idea that Israel is deliberately killing Palestinian children with contaminated water is…..disgusting.

      How can people believe such shit? The same people who originate these charges are the same people who say such unmitigated horseshit like:

      * Islam predates Judaism

      * Jews have no history in Jerusalem or the Middle East

      * There never was a Jewish Temple Mount where the Al Aqsa Mosque is located

      * Jews were never known as Palestinians

      * The Jews stole Palestinian land to make Israel

      Jean’s false libel has already received 3 upvotes. That is reprehensible.

      Do you all realize that Israel completely left all presence in Gaza thirteen years ago? That Gaza receives billions of dollars of aid? If there is contaminated water being given to Gazan children, it because the leaders of the Gazan government which is – in case you were unaware, the terrorist organization known as Hamas – have stolen that money for their own indulgence. They ordered water restrictions. They are the ones refusing to fix any problems.

      They are the ones shooting in the street Gazan Arabs who protest against the Hamas government.

    • dumboldguy Says:

      Did you read the piece from the Yale student newspaper that GB linked?

      https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2005/10/24/finkelstein-and-the-ycias-misusing-yale-abusing-students/

      You trust Finkelstein’s “information”? LMAO—-Finkelstein has no “information” to share, just the deluded ravings of a truly disgusting and certifiable nut case. I’m glad the student writers at Yale showed more sense than to accept his being allowed to spout his insane bullshit on their campus.

      PS The literal meaning of Finklestein is “sparkle stone” or “pyrite”, one of the most toxic common minerals. Kind of fitting, eh?

  4. dumboldguy Says:

    Tried to reply to a comment from jimbills on Friday—turns out it’s not even in the thread and my reply got lost. ???? Here it is:

    jimbills commented on Beyond Putin: Trump Administration’s Secret Nuclear Sellout.

    in response to jimbills:

    How does Trump giving nuclear tech to Saudi help Israel – specifically? Do you think Saudi Arabia would move a muscle if Iran attacked Israel? Or would they just be the same as they were during the Six-Day War? Do you know how deeply involved Kushner is with Saudi Arabia?: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/world/middleeast/kushner-saudi-arabia.html Forget that Kushner is … Continue reading Beyond Putin: Trump Administration’s Secret Nuclear Sellout

    Interesting background on Saudi Arabia and nuclear:
    http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-o-s/saudi-arabia.aspx

    It’s a bit more complicated than assumed. Saudi Arabia has many reasons for wanting nuclear, and many countries are willing to help them. One of the reasons, though, is that they are currently using their own oil for electricity when they could be selling it on the global market.

    • jimbills Says:

      Yeah, I stupidly put three links in the original comment and its awaiting moderation. I didn’t want to bother Peter with it – my comment isn’t that important. Very surprised you can see it somehow.

      • dumboldguy Says:

        Maybe I wasn’t clear—IMO, EVERY last bit of the last 3000 years, including the 2000 years of “exile” during the Diaspora are important, not just the 100 or so years that you were concentrating on. The Jews have been there longer than anyone.

      • dumboldguy Says:

        WordPress does some weird stuff. I too had a comment with 3 links go into moderation today (aka “perhaps lost forever”). Whenever I post one like that, I copy the message before I hit the post button. If it goes into moderation, I paste it into a new”reply”, delete the 2nd. and 3rd links and send, reply again by pasting it in and deleting 1 & 3, then replying again and pasting, deleting 1 & 2. The three messages WILL go through and be clustered together—-a not-too-difficult workaround—-try it.

    • jimbills Says:

      BTW, I can see your response, since that part of the thread is blocked by my original comment. Here it is:

      “It is complicated beyond the issue of nuclear weapons. Saudi Arabia has used up much of its groundwater and needs to ramp up desalination (for which nuke is ideal), needs to ho;d back on its oil reserves for future sale at higher prices (although they’ve got a lot of oil left)—-pumping less of it will help prices rise. US-Israel-Iran-Saudi political games afoot. Many factors in the equation”

      In response, Ghawar is finally showing signs of depletion:
      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-02/saudi-aramco-reveals-sharp-output-drop-at-super-giant-oil-field

      The Saudis are at last realizing they need to diversify. That oil won’t be gone any time soon, but they can no longer count on it for their economy and internal energy. Better to sell the remaining than burn it up when they could be using renewables and nuclear instead.

      Another factor, and this is just a (somewhat wild) guess, is the petrodollar. Saudi Arabia has been threatening it lately, and it could be in play on this issue as well:
      https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-usa-oil-exclusive/exclusive-saudi-arabia-threatens-to-ditch-dollar-oil-trades-to-stop-nopec-sources-idUSKCN1RH008

      • dumboldguy Says:

        WordPress IS goofy. Thanks for posting my comment—-it isn’t a world shaking contribution, but 20 seconds worth of thought should not just disappear.

  5. dumboldguy Says:

    Lost another comment while writing (I think—maybe it shows as a reply to another comment in the thread).

    To Brent Jensen-Schmidt:

    Considering the intelligent and coherent remarks you have made on Crock in the past re nuclear power plants and other topics, I’m having a bit of difficulty with this “conversation” you’re having with GB. Are you a Palestinian or do you have close ties to Palestinians or other Arabs in the region? (Jensen-Schmidt sounds Danish-German to me)

    IMO, the Israelis, though not perfect, have done a far better job of dealing with Arab Palestinians than others have done with minorities and refugees and displaced people around the world. There are an estimated 68 million DP’s in the world—-Rohyngans, Syrians, South Sudanese, Congolese, Central African Republicans, Afghanis, Somalis, and more. There have been several genocides since 1900, none conducted by Jews in Israel or anywhere else that I recall—-the Arabs DID try to invade and kill all the Jews, and more than once—-why can’t they instead use that “energy” to help the Palestinians?

  6. Brent Jensen-Schmidt Says:

    Greetings The Woofer.
    Am Danish, born in Copenhagen. The Schmidt bit was purchased start 20th C for business purposes. Not important. My father served with the Brits for entire ww2, picking up an English wife and enough medals to stretch my jumpers/sweaters out of shape every ANZAC day. Included a bravery award which is sorta amazing for a foreign civilian called Schmidt. Not very important. It can be negative being presumed German and the Holocaust is relevant here.
    Now all us, not yet redacted old farts, remember the cold war where the Big Bad Commies (BBC) always were (perceived to be ) winning, getting the upper hand and generally being damn depressing. The one bright spot was little David Israel, plucky survivors smashing Goliath. Also doing it with western military hardware against soviet stuff. Thank Christ for the Jews and I still(?) have a Leon Uris book somewhere in the pile.
    That was then this is now. Israel military is the most effectively powerful in the region by country miles. More Goliath than Dave. Do you actually disagree with that? It is not shy about wielding force, whether dropping much ordinance on a 5 buck a day raghead with a AK47 or cluster bombs around Lebanon. Right or wrong depend on point of view and I have NO skin in this. Hand wringing and laments will get the proverbial cup of Kawfee when bucks are included.
    Now to the crux of this panti knotting cluttering Crock. The concept of ‘GOD GIVEN RIGHT’ is nasti, nasti and nasti! Both thee and GB proclaim the Hebrews have been there forever, longer than everyone else which means any descendant, even absent couple thousand years, has a god given right to take the land. Think that thru!
    And if that doesn’t work, it is not true. People were living there before Judaism was invented. The world is not 6k yo after all. People remained when most Hebrews left and stayed the next 2k years. Then these poor, ‘primitive’ UNIMPORTANT folks had an unwanted population imposed on them by the guilt ridden powers. Cut to the Oz Aborigines, Native Americans and will bet every ‘group’ in the story of personkind, suffered thus. Sht happens and the smell remains despite claims and implications of moral high ground.

    Have a good one DOG, and maintain the rage.

    • Gingerbaker Says:

      I never mentioned “God” or “God given right” once. What the Eff are you going on about??!

      I am an atheist.

      • Brent Jensen-Schmidt Says:

        The entire concept of Israel is that it is the home of the Jews as given by god. As a direct consequence of this, millions of of descendants, 2000 years later, descended on a land that did not want them’ Fundamentalist Christians and many Jews, proclaim this as justification for the occupation and expulsions. Have seen this many times, mostly Christian but Israeli Jews also.
        In 1948 700,000 residents fled, for a start, and they and their descendants are prevented from returning to their homes. Maybe in 2000 years.
        Don’t actually know why the Arabs attacked Israel. certainly was not in the cause of the poor benighted Palestinians. Stop looking for moral right in this situation.

        • dumboldguy Says:

          I’m still not clear what you’re talking about with “god-given right”. GB has said he doesn’t believe in God. I myself am an agnostic because if there is a god, he doesn’t give a rat’s ass about human beings and doesn’t “live” in any “church”.

          My science background DOES make me wonder where it all came from, and if there is a “higher power” or “creator” that made it all, IMO, that is just as likely to be a slack-jawed 10-year-old in some larger universe playing a “sim” game on his XYZ-Pad as it is some “GOD” (which is a construct made up by weak and sorry ass humans).

          Israel is the “home of the Jews” as given to them by the world governments because of universal guilt over The Holocaust, the most vicious genocide ever perpetrated. A highly advanced and civilized country (Germany, with lots of born-to-the-name Schmidts) selected out a portion of the German people (who happened to have Jewish ancestry but were otherwise indistinguishable from “real Germans”) and slaughtered them. We’re not talking about primitive tribes in the undeveloped world killing each other over land or governance.

          The Jews were given Israel because it was an ancestral homeland and the “powers” that possessed it had it to give. Why didn’t the arabs revolt against the western colonial powers long before? Why did they wait until Israel arrived to try to take back “their” land? The only “moral right” in the whole thing is that the Jews DO now have a last bastion from which to fight those who would destroy them—–I agree with “never again”.

        • Brent Jensen-Schmidt Says:

          This is so bluddy stupid. One little post about OT, with the criticism that Israel wields its total military power with abandon, and crap is all over this AGW site.
          I observe that a piss poor people have been displaced and shat on thru NO fault of theirs.
          You two observe that a terribly wronged people were given a place to live and a making a success of it.
          I don’t think I have disagreed with either observation!
          Pointless.
          FYI the ‘Arabs’ did revolt in the 1930s against the proposed Jewish immigration.
          This was “brutally suppressed” by the British who then promised to limit immigration to 30,000. They failed.
          And what’s with the Schmidt bit?

          • dumboldguy Says:

            I wouldn’t call it stupid or a waste of time to talk about injustice, racism and anti-semitism whenever they appear—-and they are all tied into the complex web of events surrounding AGW.

            “FYI the ‘Arabs’ did revolt in the 1930s against the proposed Jewish immigration”.

            Why are you avoiding my point? The colonial powers had been in the middle east since the 1800’s and took over Palestine etc. after WW1—-revolting “against Jewish immigration” is NOT revolting against the colonizers per se, which should have taken place in the 20’s.

            The “Schmidt bit” was an attempt at a joke re: your statement that “The Schmidt bit was purchased start 20th C for business purposes”.

  7. Brent Jensen-Schmidt Says:

    This particular discussion, of injustice and racism, has no direct relation to AGW, therefore extraneous. Besides, it is depressing me. I, as in me, am not anti-semitic. My best mate, childhood chum and companion (co-conspirator in idiocies) of my youth, was born in the Palestine mandate to European Jewish refugees. We still insult each other over Skype periodically. Happy you clarified the Schmidt bit, am defensively sensitive when the name and Holocaust go together. Overly sensitive.
    The Arabs were forever revolting against the colonial powers. The only Palestine revolt, am familiar with, WAS against the colonial power. The TRIGGER and result were as stated.
    Am atheist with a rational dislike of religion, not people. Well, not automatically anyway. Even Buddhism has been added to the bunch after the Tamil massacres and Rohyngan…disgrace. Going to bed.

    • dumboldguy Says:

      If you’ve ever watched Laugh-In, that old US comedy from the 70’s, you know the show ends with one host saying to the other “Say goodnight, Dick!”, to which Dick always responded with “Goodnight, Dick”.

      Say goodnight, Brent! See you tomorrow—the world will still be here, deteriorating and confused.


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